How about a discussion regarding lost friends and family? I am very interested in details around this. I just finished reading CJ Hopkins amazing book The Rise of the New Normal Reichand he has quite a bit to say about it.
This is what I am curious about: what is the basic response of the New Normal folks in your life when you try to give them facts? Do they ever calmly discuss facts, and science, with you? Do they even allow you to have an opinion, particularly an opinion about people’s character, or your intuitive sense about “good people” or “bad people” (i.e., Fauci, Biden, etc.) Do they typically get angry (I mean REALLY angry) when they discuss any of this with you?
My experience has shown that if you present facts to a “sheep” they do not discuss, they do not try to dissuade you with FACTS of their own, they don’t even present them. They either attack you directly (you are selfish, stupid, etc.) or they attack your source, usually when talking about scientific things like vaccines, etc. But they usually attack the character of your source rather than their education, expertise, or whatever. They will instead point out their ulterior motives (money, fame), or tell you about affairs they’ve had, or that they believe in God, or whatever.
Please share your thoughts on this. Hopkins says these people are completely unreachable and that trying to turn them with facts, or science, or reason is completely pointless. I think I agree.
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I resist total agreement, having a rescuer archetype in my deck and actually caring, maybe too much… I really want to help, and all such efforts have been futile, even personally damaging.
With good reason, I have always loathed the pharma industry and have not hesitated to voice that opinion. When the PCR test was the first huge clue that something was rotten, I started sending links to all and sundry, quoting Walter Benjamin often: When all think alike, no one thinks very much… I tried to be kind. I tried to be fair. I said I hoped I was wrong (which was true) and offered links to interviews with questioning scientists as something to think about and consider…
Early on, there wasn’t much explantory context to offer, and so much of it seemed outrageous to those who believe in the sanctity of the news. The test seemed moot when so many were dying. With the messaging honed down to the same same same thing on every channel and outlet through the safe media initiative, or whatever it’s called, a few scattered voices in the wilderness— from scientists asking questions— at that time from Europe— meant nothing in the constant barrage of fear porn. There will always be wingnuts crying “foul” was the response. They are irrelevant.
It’s interesting that “questioning the narrative” is interpreted as disrespect for the fallen.
There was derisive anger. Don’t wrinkle my comfort zone! Smirking, eye-rolling dismissal came from highly intelligent people. They questioned my questioning. Shouldn’t you worry more about being, you know, obsessive?
What is actually worse is the damage from the shots now showing up. I really, sincerely hoped I was wrong. One friend who responded to something I sent with “Einstein had a mental illness too, you know…” has 2 inoperable blood clots in her brain which have NOTHING to do with the shots. Local rumour now has it I’m an angry mental case with an axe to grind. Talented, but batshit-crazy.
We were all traumatized. They could not absorb new information, and I get that. Now, the information stream is solid. A firehose, even, of clear data, testimony and evidence. I read and listen to things I want to send out… and hoard them instead, which is painful. Jessica Rose is magnificent! It’s terrible feeling so helpless, so personally dismissed. Detachment and forgiveness are what I’m working on, and it’s work. I really don’t know how to give up trying to help, but since I gave up disrespectful relationships it’s very quiet around here.
Who among us has not been duped by someone or something? Not on this scale, of course, but I'm searching for that anecdotal moment of realization as common ground, or pasture...
I've always been an observer. All of my life, I've been a lone wolf. Even in my career, I would often work alone or with a select few people I knew and trusted. I never try to evangelise. I never try to persuade. My credo is to each his or her own. I do me, you do you.
So in my observations over the last 2+ years, I have learned one thing above all else - we are truly fucked unless people can awaken. But the job to awaken each person is on their own. They cannot be shown facts. They will not listen to reason. If they are to awaken, it must be on their own at the right time for each person.
To paraphrase from the Scottish comedian Craig Ferguson, I am part of a group which does not believe in promotion but you can find them near the front of the phone book (admittedly a dated reference these days). What I have learned in my journey there is that there is only one way to be successful in that program - to be fully accepting that I need to change and commit to doing whatever is needed to make those changes. If I was not ready, or not willing to take the steps needed to change, then I would not succeed. I think it is very much the same with those who "haven't woken". They need to get to that point when they are ready on their own (or never get there).
So I don't think we should be trying to convince anyone. Frankly, in these days as we slide down that slippery slope to totalitarianism, it actually does us more harm than good to stick out.
The people in my life that disagree with my way of thinking definitely know where I stand. They may not understand why, but it's not my job to educate them. If they are curious, all they have to do is ask. But no one ever does.
My daily challenge is my wife and I doing this dance around this issue but never ever discussing it. We recently started watching the show Dopesick about the Oxycontin epidemic. There are so many things that she agrees with in the show yet has this disconnect on in the covid world. She totally gets that Pharma companies are dishonest, only interested in profits and really don't care about how it impacts peoples lives. She totally gets how the FDA is corrupt, how those approving these dangerous medications really only think of what's in it for them - bribes, board positions with the companies they are evaluating and so on. But yet somehow the covid vaccines were all above board and there was nothing wrong with them. I shake my head at all this and it is at that point that I realise there is absolutely nothing we can do to wake these people up. They either do it on their own or they never do.
Great comment Mike, as usual. I agree with your final conclusions, but I am sure you would agree that there is something very odd going on with people not able to come to these sorts of consensual conclusions all of us come to. We all may be willing to just let people figure it out on their own, but when they can't "figure this out" then all of us are stuck with the consequences.
You've heard my comments on "why" sheep are like they are, but I don't think that fully covers it. Creating cult members may be easy in small groups, but when it comes to 75% of the world population, there must be some other compelling factor other than "cult psychology"...what is that? The devil (am honestly beginning to wonder if there actually is some sort of Egregore force out there)?, 5G? The chemicals in the vaccine? What?
I think the "sheep" moniker is very appropriate. Some lead and most follow. And when I say lead, I don't necessarily mean to lead others. I mean those "shrews" want to understand how things were decided, who was involved, what other options were considered, why were they discounted and so on. We ask a lot of questions and have an interest and desire to know "how the sausage was made". Most don't have that compulsion. They look at a situation and with very little information decide what side they are on (which is why the propaganda is so effective) and that this is best left in the hands of the "experts" to manage. They don't question whether these experts are qualified or might have conflicts of interest. They just don't want to be bothered with the minutia.
In my mind, there is hope that these twisted, corrupt, evil "elites" will become so dependant on the successes of these initial tactics that they won't realise that many people are becoming alienated or dare I say "immune" to them and that may lead to this awakening we have discussed. I know many people who used to watch or read the news religiously, and would believe everything said. But over the course of this entire made up catastrophe, many have now started to turn away from that. It has become too depressing. It is too filled with fear and desperation. It makes the person consuming it feel ill. So they are turning away. And they are finding they enjoy the new found freedom.
This is what I hope to happen. That they are one trick ponies and won't be able to adapt quickly enough to the tides turning on them. A guy can dream can't he?
Well said. And thanks for approving my use of the word "sheep" to describe who we are talking about. I understand it is demeaning (is "shrew"?) but it is so easy, and basically descriptive. A bit of tongue in cheek. It has been suggested that I use "normies" or "New Normals"...but then using "shrew" doesn't make much sense. Anyway....I will stick with what I've got.
I have found what you are saying as true as well. I have a few very close friends that I basically spar with, not so much now as we have declared this talk off limits, but when I did I was astounded how they never could just talk about it...it was as if I was saying that Jews do have smaller brain cavities and are deficient (one of these guys is Jewish) or that Hitler didn't kill any Jews...or something equally as dubious and "off limits" in discussion...but even THAT shouldn't be off limits. Maybe we would no longer be friends if I believed such things, but jeesh, we should be able to TALK about it. Anyway...this seems to be a common thread what you describe. Sheep get so angry...!! They BLEAT. At least shrews are not very loud, they will bite a dogs nose off if it bothers them, but they are quiet about it.
My sister has a friend who is a mega intellectual super sheep. She is a research hound...researches everything obsessively. She is one of those that is totally after my sister to reconsider her "anti vax" ways, and "get with the science." She took it upon herself to go through every doctor, scientist, politician that my sister ever mentioned and once and for all prove she was wrong to believe in anything these misfits had to say. I read her letter to my sister, and I was expecting to see some decent points...nothing...maybe a few things here and there that were concerning regarding character...but no science at all, and every jab meant to totally discredit these people was totally empty to me...for example, no one should listen to anything Dr. Zelenko has to say because he believes this is a "war against God"...huh? Does that mean all the science and medicine he knows is suddenly defunct because he is religious? I was quite surprised that this "research nut" could only come up with this sort of hominem to make her points.
"Few do notice them, for they are often imperceptible. But they have their effects and are cumulative and are far more powerful over time than blatant statements that will turn people off, especially those who think propaganda doesn’t work on them. This is the power of successful propaganda, whether purposeful or not. It particularly works well on “intellectual” and highly schooled people."
Another thing you reminded me of was the John Oliver HBO show where he tried to convince everyone to get vaxxed. I like comedy. I often slog through a lot of garbage to find the few gems. I used to watch this show because he has a very weird sense of humour and he seems to go after big business in support of the "little guy". But that particular episode made me finally open my eyes to not only his show, but also all the other late night shows that were either subtle or blatant in their support of the (not so) great reset agenda.
The program, as I recall, since I watched it once several months ago and couldn't even finish, played up insignificant, debatable or blatantly false disinformation about the benefits, and the very few valid questions they showed came from sources they had made to look like idiots for quite some time, like Tucker Carlson, thereby just discounting any valid questions by discrediting the source. It was a completely one sided hatchet job.
But this plays into what I said before. People are starting to connect the dots. Why is there only one side presented to any issue? Why are comment sections either not present or only show supporting comments? Why aren't the issues people are most concerned with even discussed?
It IS interesting when we DO listen to an “argument” how easy it is to see gaping holes in the reasoning. I still don’t get it. It is good that you listen to a lot of this, no one can tell you that you are guilty of the same thing we claim they are guilty of: not listening to all sides. I used to do that, but I got tired of listening to the gibberish, and the anger.
I read that article in OG. It was good. I like most of their writers. It is refreshing reading stuff that just makes sense. Strange again how that is. I often wonder if we are the ones that are crazy, then listen to fellow “crazy” people and so easily follow what they are saying, the logic in it, the science and objectivity in it. It is interesting too how you can watch or listen to an entire interview or lecture and never once do they put down people taking the vaccine, or try to discredit people like Fauci (if the interview is about corruption they may focus on those people, but if about the science, they don’t). Am I crazy? I listen to the sheep side and it makes my stomach tighten in a knot because all they do is rant and rave, discredit, get angry, ugly…so odd…
Style over content. It's a problem. Someone I considered an activist responded to a Naomi Wolf talk with "She looked frumpy and hysterical." Couldn't listen. People like their pablum smoooooth.
I have seen those same responses plus one other: trance. They'll look slightly up and to the side, focusing a 1000 yards away, returning to earth when my threatening words have finished. I no longer even try to reach them, unless they ask me a question.
I do wonder about trying curiosity, using open-ended questions and neutral terminology that won't trigger a trance or rage. For example, "What do you think about the mask requirements in XYZ school?" (and biting my tongue before I say, "What do you think about the mandated suffocation imposed by Pharma shills and hypochondriacs in XYZ school?") Or, "What do you think about the boosters?" and not adding "for a fake disease diagnosed with a fake test".
Thank you. Hopkins says the only way is to focus on the basic totalitarian aspects...not facts about science etc....focus on censorship (why can't these other scientists say anything?) the destruction of freedom of speech (is right to ever censor anything but hate speech etc.?), rights, etc. There is always a response to that as well though. He thinks the only way they will break is the same way cult members break...they finally "get it"...but not through facts, but through the breakdown of the authority.
I like what you say here...if you do open it up like you describe, you will more than likely have a better chance of it...any time you push hard against a resistance, all you get it more resistance.
As you say, even bringing up totalitarianism doesn't work. In my experience of trying with the Cambridge New Normals, they just say, "Well, it's a pandemic." And that settles it (for them).
To another one, a long-time friend, I said (in May 2020) that banning protests is fascist. He said, "Have YOU been fined? No? Then it's not fascism!" And the issue was settled (for him).
That same evening, I had also criticized vaccines, the actual ones as well as the to-be-invented ones that were obviously the reason for the scamdemic. His kids heard, so they later asked him whether vaccines are safe. After that evening, he ended our friendship of many years (also between our children, who'd grown up together).
So, I agree with Hopkins. The cult believers will snap out of it only at the end, through the collapse of their cult.
But, maybe there's still a small chance to reach them through the curiosity questions.
I resist total agreement, having a rescuer archetype in my deck and actually caring, maybe too much… I really want to help, and all such efforts have been futile, even personally damaging.
With good reason, I have always loathed the pharma industry and have not hesitated to voice that opinion. When the PCR test was the first huge clue that something was rotten, I started sending links to all and sundry, quoting Walter Benjamin often: When all think alike, no one thinks very much… I tried to be kind. I tried to be fair. I said I hoped I was wrong (which was true) and offered links to interviews with questioning scientists as something to think about and consider…
Early on, there wasn’t much explantory context to offer, and so much of it seemed outrageous to those who believe in the sanctity of the news. The test seemed moot when so many were dying. With the messaging honed down to the same same same thing on every channel and outlet through the safe media initiative, or whatever it’s called, a few scattered voices in the wilderness— from scientists asking questions— at that time from Europe— meant nothing in the constant barrage of fear porn. There will always be wingnuts crying “foul” was the response. They are irrelevant.
It’s interesting that “questioning the narrative” is interpreted as disrespect for the fallen.
There was derisive anger. Don’t wrinkle my comfort zone! Smirking, eye-rolling dismissal came from highly intelligent people. They questioned my questioning. Shouldn’t you worry more about being, you know, obsessive?
What is actually worse is the damage from the shots now showing up. I really, sincerely hoped I was wrong. One friend who responded to something I sent with “Einstein had a mental illness too, you know…” has 2 inoperable blood clots in her brain which have NOTHING to do with the shots. Local rumour now has it I’m an angry mental case with an axe to grind. Talented, but batshit-crazy.
We were all traumatized. They could not absorb new information, and I get that. Now, the information stream is solid. A firehose, even, of clear data, testimony and evidence. I read and listen to things I want to send out… and hoard them instead, which is painful. Jessica Rose is magnificent! It’s terrible feeling so helpless, so personally dismissed. Detachment and forgiveness are what I’m working on, and it’s work. I really don’t know how to give up trying to help, but since I gave up disrespectful relationships it’s very quiet around here.
Who among us has not been duped by someone or something? Not on this scale, of course, but I'm searching for that anecdotal moment of realization as common ground, or pasture...
Excellent! I’m just going to leave it at that! Other than to say we can still love those who seem to be lost and untouchable.
I've always been an observer. All of my life, I've been a lone wolf. Even in my career, I would often work alone or with a select few people I knew and trusted. I never try to evangelise. I never try to persuade. My credo is to each his or her own. I do me, you do you.
So in my observations over the last 2+ years, I have learned one thing above all else - we are truly fucked unless people can awaken. But the job to awaken each person is on their own. They cannot be shown facts. They will not listen to reason. If they are to awaken, it must be on their own at the right time for each person.
To paraphrase from the Scottish comedian Craig Ferguson, I am part of a group which does not believe in promotion but you can find them near the front of the phone book (admittedly a dated reference these days). What I have learned in my journey there is that there is only one way to be successful in that program - to be fully accepting that I need to change and commit to doing whatever is needed to make those changes. If I was not ready, or not willing to take the steps needed to change, then I would not succeed. I think it is very much the same with those who "haven't woken". They need to get to that point when they are ready on their own (or never get there).
So I don't think we should be trying to convince anyone. Frankly, in these days as we slide down that slippery slope to totalitarianism, it actually does us more harm than good to stick out.
The people in my life that disagree with my way of thinking definitely know where I stand. They may not understand why, but it's not my job to educate them. If they are curious, all they have to do is ask. But no one ever does.
My daily challenge is my wife and I doing this dance around this issue but never ever discussing it. We recently started watching the show Dopesick about the Oxycontin epidemic. There are so many things that she agrees with in the show yet has this disconnect on in the covid world. She totally gets that Pharma companies are dishonest, only interested in profits and really don't care about how it impacts peoples lives. She totally gets how the FDA is corrupt, how those approving these dangerous medications really only think of what's in it for them - bribes, board positions with the companies they are evaluating and so on. But yet somehow the covid vaccines were all above board and there was nothing wrong with them. I shake my head at all this and it is at that point that I realise there is absolutely nothing we can do to wake these people up. They either do it on their own or they never do.
Great comment Mike, as usual. I agree with your final conclusions, but I am sure you would agree that there is something very odd going on with people not able to come to these sorts of consensual conclusions all of us come to. We all may be willing to just let people figure it out on their own, but when they can't "figure this out" then all of us are stuck with the consequences.
You've heard my comments on "why" sheep are like they are, but I don't think that fully covers it. Creating cult members may be easy in small groups, but when it comes to 75% of the world population, there must be some other compelling factor other than "cult psychology"...what is that? The devil (am honestly beginning to wonder if there actually is some sort of Egregore force out there)?, 5G? The chemicals in the vaccine? What?
I think the "sheep" moniker is very appropriate. Some lead and most follow. And when I say lead, I don't necessarily mean to lead others. I mean those "shrews" want to understand how things were decided, who was involved, what other options were considered, why were they discounted and so on. We ask a lot of questions and have an interest and desire to know "how the sausage was made". Most don't have that compulsion. They look at a situation and with very little information decide what side they are on (which is why the propaganda is so effective) and that this is best left in the hands of the "experts" to manage. They don't question whether these experts are qualified or might have conflicts of interest. They just don't want to be bothered with the minutia.
In my mind, there is hope that these twisted, corrupt, evil "elites" will become so dependant on the successes of these initial tactics that they won't realise that many people are becoming alienated or dare I say "immune" to them and that may lead to this awakening we have discussed. I know many people who used to watch or read the news religiously, and would believe everything said. But over the course of this entire made up catastrophe, many have now started to turn away from that. It has become too depressing. It is too filled with fear and desperation. It makes the person consuming it feel ill. So they are turning away. And they are finding they enjoy the new found freedom.
This is what I hope to happen. That they are one trick ponies and won't be able to adapt quickly enough to the tides turning on them. A guy can dream can't he?
Well said. And thanks for approving my use of the word "sheep" to describe who we are talking about. I understand it is demeaning (is "shrew"?) but it is so easy, and basically descriptive. A bit of tongue in cheek. It has been suggested that I use "normies" or "New Normals"...but then using "shrew" doesn't make much sense. Anyway....I will stick with what I've got.
I have found what you are saying as true as well. I have a few very close friends that I basically spar with, not so much now as we have declared this talk off limits, but when I did I was astounded how they never could just talk about it...it was as if I was saying that Jews do have smaller brain cavities and are deficient (one of these guys is Jewish) or that Hitler didn't kill any Jews...or something equally as dubious and "off limits" in discussion...but even THAT shouldn't be off limits. Maybe we would no longer be friends if I believed such things, but jeesh, we should be able to TALK about it. Anyway...this seems to be a common thread what you describe. Sheep get so angry...!! They BLEAT. At least shrews are not very loud, they will bite a dogs nose off if it bothers them, but they are quiet about it.
My sister has a friend who is a mega intellectual super sheep. She is a research hound...researches everything obsessively. She is one of those that is totally after my sister to reconsider her "anti vax" ways, and "get with the science." She took it upon herself to go through every doctor, scientist, politician that my sister ever mentioned and once and for all prove she was wrong to believe in anything these misfits had to say. I read her letter to my sister, and I was expecting to see some decent points...nothing...maybe a few things here and there that were concerning regarding character...but no science at all, and every jab meant to totally discredit these people was totally empty to me...for example, no one should listen to anything Dr. Zelenko has to say because he believes this is a "war against God"...huh? Does that mean all the science and medicine he knows is suddenly defunct because he is religious? I was quite surprised that this "research nut" could only come up with this sort of hominem to make her points.
Your comment reminded me of this article I saw recently on OffG - https://off-guardian.org/2022/05/15/the-subtleties-of-anti-russia-leftist-rhetoric/
Here is the part that you reminded me of:
"Few do notice them, for they are often imperceptible. But they have their effects and are cumulative and are far more powerful over time than blatant statements that will turn people off, especially those who think propaganda doesn’t work on them. This is the power of successful propaganda, whether purposeful or not. It particularly works well on “intellectual” and highly schooled people."
Another thing you reminded me of was the John Oliver HBO show where he tried to convince everyone to get vaxxed. I like comedy. I often slog through a lot of garbage to find the few gems. I used to watch this show because he has a very weird sense of humour and he seems to go after big business in support of the "little guy". But that particular episode made me finally open my eyes to not only his show, but also all the other late night shows that were either subtle or blatant in their support of the (not so) great reset agenda.
The program, as I recall, since I watched it once several months ago and couldn't even finish, played up insignificant, debatable or blatantly false disinformation about the benefits, and the very few valid questions they showed came from sources they had made to look like idiots for quite some time, like Tucker Carlson, thereby just discounting any valid questions by discrediting the source. It was a completely one sided hatchet job.
But this plays into what I said before. People are starting to connect the dots. Why is there only one side presented to any issue? Why are comment sections either not present or only show supporting comments? Why aren't the issues people are most concerned with even discussed?
It IS interesting when we DO listen to an “argument” how easy it is to see gaping holes in the reasoning. I still don’t get it. It is good that you listen to a lot of this, no one can tell you that you are guilty of the same thing we claim they are guilty of: not listening to all sides. I used to do that, but I got tired of listening to the gibberish, and the anger.
I read that article in OG. It was good. I like most of their writers. It is refreshing reading stuff that just makes sense. Strange again how that is. I often wonder if we are the ones that are crazy, then listen to fellow “crazy” people and so easily follow what they are saying, the logic in it, the science and objectivity in it. It is interesting too how you can watch or listen to an entire interview or lecture and never once do they put down people taking the vaccine, or try to discredit people like Fauci (if the interview is about corruption they may focus on those people, but if about the science, they don’t). Am I crazy? I listen to the sheep side and it makes my stomach tighten in a knot because all they do is rant and rave, discredit, get angry, ugly…so odd…
Style over content. It's a problem. Someone I considered an activist responded to a Naomi Wolf talk with "She looked frumpy and hysterical." Couldn't listen. People like their pablum smoooooth.
I have seen those same responses plus one other: trance. They'll look slightly up and to the side, focusing a 1000 yards away, returning to earth when my threatening words have finished. I no longer even try to reach them, unless they ask me a question.
I do wonder about trying curiosity, using open-ended questions and neutral terminology that won't trigger a trance or rage. For example, "What do you think about the mask requirements in XYZ school?" (and biting my tongue before I say, "What do you think about the mandated suffocation imposed by Pharma shills and hypochondriacs in XYZ school?") Or, "What do you think about the boosters?" and not adding "for a fake disease diagnosed with a fake test".
Thank you. Hopkins says the only way is to focus on the basic totalitarian aspects...not facts about science etc....focus on censorship (why can't these other scientists say anything?) the destruction of freedom of speech (is right to ever censor anything but hate speech etc.?), rights, etc. There is always a response to that as well though. He thinks the only way they will break is the same way cult members break...they finally "get it"...but not through facts, but through the breakdown of the authority.
I like what you say here...if you do open it up like you describe, you will more than likely have a better chance of it...any time you push hard against a resistance, all you get it more resistance.
As you say, even bringing up totalitarianism doesn't work. In my experience of trying with the Cambridge New Normals, they just say, "Well, it's a pandemic." And that settles it (for them).
To another one, a long-time friend, I said (in May 2020) that banning protests is fascist. He said, "Have YOU been fined? No? Then it's not fascism!" And the issue was settled (for him).
That same evening, I had also criticized vaccines, the actual ones as well as the to-be-invented ones that were obviously the reason for the scamdemic. His kids heard, so they later asked him whether vaccines are safe. After that evening, he ended our friendship of many years (also between our children, who'd grown up together).
So, I agree with Hopkins. The cult believers will snap out of it only at the end, through the collapse of their cult.
But, maybe there's still a small chance to reach them through the curiosity questions.